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	<title>Comments on: Weeding out the weak</title>
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		<title>By: Michael Little</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Little</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You make a good point Bobby. I agree, we should always be pushing for higher quality. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a good point Bobby. I agree, we should always be pushing for higher quality. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fliquidstudios.com/?p=77#comment-25</guid>
		<description>I only skimmed the post, but I disagree with your assessment of the problem with the industry.

&quot;If our clients are unable to ensure the quality of what is being delivered then it is up to us, as passionate software developers, to continually push for higher quality and improved standards.&quot;

I think this is exactly backwards.  We should be pushing for higher quality and improved standards anyway..  It&#039;s not our customer&#039;s responsibility to make sure we don&#039;t write crappy code, it&#039;s ours.  Clients calling us out on bad code should be a last resort and the exception to the rule, not as what you require in order to start writing good code.

I think your proposed solution goes on to address the real problem, but for the wrong reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only skimmed the post, but I disagree with your assessment of the problem with the industry.</p>
<p>&#8220;If our clients are unable to ensure the quality of what is being delivered then it is up to us, as passionate software developers, to continually push for higher quality and improved standards.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is exactly backwards.  We should be pushing for higher quality and improved standards anyway..  It&#8217;s not our customer&#8217;s responsibility to make sure we don&#8217;t write crappy code, it&#8217;s ours.  Clients calling us out on bad code should be a last resort and the exception to the rule, not as what you require in order to start writing good code.</p>
<p>I think your proposed solution goes on to address the real problem, but for the wrong reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Little</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Little</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fliquidstudios.com/?p=77#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Thank to you all for your comments.

Andrew, you make a very good comment. I agree completely with most of what you are saying. I have actually read quite a bit of Martin Fowler&#039;s literature. Speaking for myself though, I generally find it easier and faster to write clean, structured, reusable code whether it is for throw away purposes or long term use. I guess this is just force of habit.

I&#039;d just like to clear up about the reasons behind the people who were &quot;selected&quot; for the redundancies. The reason certain people were selected was merely a case of wrong place and wrong time. It was nothing we had done wrong or that we achieved less results than others. On the contrary several of us were frequently noted as &quot;outperforming&quot; some of the developers that retained their jobs. The point I was trying to make relating to this in my post is that performance, skill level, length of service or any other factor did not play a role in selecting who kept their job and who did not.

Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank to you all for your comments.</p>
<p>Andrew, you make a very good comment. I agree completely with most of what you are saying. I have actually read quite a bit of Martin Fowler&#8217;s literature. Speaking for myself though, I generally find it easier and faster to write clean, structured, reusable code whether it is for throw away purposes or long term use. I guess this is just force of habit.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d just like to clear up about the reasons behind the people who were &#8220;selected&#8221; for the redundancies. The reason certain people were selected was merely a case of wrong place and wrong time. It was nothing we had done wrong or that we achieved less results than others. On the contrary several of us were frequently noted as &#8220;outperforming&#8221; some of the developers that retained their jobs. The point I was trying to make relating to this in my post is that performance, skill level, length of service or any other factor did not play a role in selecting who kept their job and who did not.</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fliquidstudios.com/?p=77#comment-22</guid>
		<description>Programming is really a means, and not an ends. Generally, companies aims to make a profit, and to put themselves in a position to make profits in the future, and so ultimately, how good code is should be measured by how well it meets those objectives. Conscientious individuals want more than just profits - they often want to make the world a better place as well, and so this opens up a whole lot of other objectives which people can optimise for.

However, writing elegant, or reusable, or well formatted code generally does not help the achievement of the goals in the short term; getting users the features that help them when they want them (and which work properly) helps optimise the objective function.

In the long term, kludgy code can be harder to maintain. Martin Fowler&#039;s writings on &#039;technical debt&#039; ( http://martinfowler.com/bliki/TechnicalDebt.html ) are a good way of looking at this. If code is for research or prototyping or other throwaway purposes, and it is unlikely that anything being written can be used later, then it doesn&#039;t matter if you write incredibly kludgy code - the best thing is to churn out code as fast and as cheaply as possible. The same level of unit testing used for reusable code might also be a waste of time - there is no point testing a non-reusable routine for parameter values outside the domain which it will ever see.

On the other hand, if code is going to be maintained for years, and parts of the code are likely to be useful in house for other purposes, you don&#039;t want to get into technical debt, and should spend the time to write elegant and reusable code, written to make things easy to extend later, and easier on maintenance programmers.

In short, good programming is really about long-term pragmatism - always about making sensible trade-offs between short-term pragmatism and excessive idealism. It may be that the 9-5ers who kept their jobs were actually making this trade-off better. Then again, maybe management mistook the productivity achieved by short-term pragmatism and will pay for keeping on the wrong developers later when the technical debt starts to pile up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Programming is really a means, and not an ends. Generally, companies aims to make a profit, and to put themselves in a position to make profits in the future, and so ultimately, how good code is should be measured by how well it meets those objectives. Conscientious individuals want more than just profits &#8211; they often want to make the world a better place as well, and so this opens up a whole lot of other objectives which people can optimise for.</p>
<p>However, writing elegant, or reusable, or well formatted code generally does not help the achievement of the goals in the short term; getting users the features that help them when they want them (and which work properly) helps optimise the objective function.</p>
<p>In the long term, kludgy code can be harder to maintain. Martin Fowler&#8217;s writings on &#8216;technical debt&#8217; ( <a href="http://martinfowler.com/bliki/TechnicalDebt.html" rel="nofollow">http://martinfowler.com/bliki/TechnicalDebt.html</a> ) are a good way of looking at this. If code is for research or prototyping or other throwaway purposes, and it is unlikely that anything being written can be used later, then it doesn&#8217;t matter if you write incredibly kludgy code &#8211; the best thing is to churn out code as fast and as cheaply as possible. The same level of unit testing used for reusable code might also be a waste of time &#8211; there is no point testing a non-reusable routine for parameter values outside the domain which it will ever see.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if code is going to be maintained for years, and parts of the code are likely to be useful in house for other purposes, you don&#8217;t want to get into technical debt, and should spend the time to write elegant and reusable code, written to make things easy to extend later, and easier on maintenance programmers.</p>
<p>In short, good programming is really about long-term pragmatism &#8211; always about making sensible trade-offs between short-term pragmatism and excessive idealism. It may be that the 9-5ers who kept their jobs were actually making this trade-off better. Then again, maybe management mistook the productivity achieved by short-term pragmatism and will pay for keeping on the wrong developers later when the technical debt starts to pile up.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashish</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fliquidstudios.com/?p=77#comment-21</guid>
		<description>A real nice post. Agree that a prolong exposure to sub-standard code has really made people accept that, this is what real coding is :-( Infact, most of the so called Developers in todays IT industry can&#039;t even write decent code, leave out innovation. Rare the passionate developers and if they are they become so overloaded to ensure Quality that they can hardly breath. Also agree with Mark that, Management is fine as long as things as working. To satisfy hunger to improve myself, made me work in Open Source projects, learning from real passionate Developers. 
As far as your opinion on &quot;What we can do&quot;, I tend to disagree that its going to be of much help. Empires of Knowledge are build on knowledge, you really can&#039;t make a person write good code by following conventions. Its just uniform.

Still, we ought not loose the faith. There are plenty of our kind around. So lets contribute whatever we can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A real nice post. Agree that a prolong exposure to sub-standard code has really made people accept that, this is what real coding is <img src='http://www.fliquidstudios.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' />  Infact, most of the so called Developers in todays IT industry can&#8217;t even write decent code, leave out innovation. Rare the passionate developers and if they are they become so overloaded to ensure Quality that they can hardly breath. Also agree with Mark that, Management is fine as long as things as working. To satisfy hunger to improve myself, made me work in Open Source projects, learning from real passionate Developers.<br />
As far as your opinion on &#8220;What we can do&#8221;, I tend to disagree that its going to be of much help. Empires of Knowledge are build on knowledge, you really can&#8217;t make a person write good code by following conventions. Its just uniform.</p>
<p>Still, we ought not loose the faith. There are plenty of our kind around. So lets contribute whatever we can.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 03:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fliquidstudios.com/?p=77#comment-20</guid>
		<description>The problem is that management will never (ok, a few will) value people like us.  I truly believe that you have been forced to make the correct option - You have to create your own company.  It will be a tough sell. You need to find the same committed people to partner with, including sales and marketing people. Be cautious of who you choose and don&#039;t be afraid to cut loose those who don&#039;t show the same commitment. There are plenty of 9-5 jobs for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that management will never (ok, a few will) value people like us.  I truly believe that you have been forced to make the correct option &#8211; You have to create your own company.  It will be a tough sell. You need to find the same committed people to partner with, including sales and marketing people. Be cautious of who you choose and don&#8217;t be afraid to cut loose those who don&#8217;t show the same commitment. There are plenty of 9-5 jobs for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Biggins</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Biggins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fliquidstudios.com/?p=77#comment-16</guid>
		<description>&quot;The good thing is you’ll probably get better recognition if you aim for higher standards and are vocal about it.&quot;

I guess thats it, isn&#039;t it? I mean, if all developers were fantastic, then there would be no margin between good and great developers. None of us would receive the deserved recognition for being better than the others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The good thing is you’ll probably get better recognition if you aim for higher standards and are vocal about it.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess thats it, isn&#8217;t it? I mean, if all developers were fantastic, then there would be no margin between good and great developers. None of us would receive the deserved recognition for being better than the others.</p>
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		<title>By: Loïc Hoguin</title>
		<link>http://www.fliquidstudios.com/2008/12/30/weeding-out-the-weak/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Loïc Hoguin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fliquidstudios.com/?p=77#comment-11</guid>
		<description>&quot;Am I a raving lunatic or do I make some sort of sense?&quot;
Probably both. While I applaud the initiative, and wish there was less bad code around here, I believe there is hundreds more 9-5ers than there is passionate developers. This makes improving things a lot harder. The problem is especially noticeable when the barrier of entry is very low, like with PHP and most other interpreted languages.

The good thing is you&#039;ll probably get better recognition if you aim for higher standards and are vocal about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Am I a raving lunatic or do I make some sort of sense?&#8221;<br />
Probably both. While I applaud the initiative, and wish there was less bad code around here, I believe there is hundreds more 9-5ers than there is passionate developers. This makes improving things a lot harder. The problem is especially noticeable when the barrier of entry is very low, like with PHP and most other interpreted languages.</p>
<p>The good thing is you&#8217;ll probably get better recognition if you aim for higher standards and are vocal about it.</p>
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